I am INCANDESCENT

[kittie]

I've calmed down a bit now - my blood pressure went through the roof a bit there.
Even if this bloke was misquoted, he could really do with some training himself - on how to handle the media!  

Let's all chill a bit while Andrea gets the facts.

[radaro]

Of course, they never mention the time and money wasted while the assistant has to explain something repeatedly to the boss because the boss doesn't have the correct training.  Or that the assistant is doing a job that he/she doesn't have the training for because the boss doesn't know how to do it.

Based on the postings in the Hub, this happens quite a bit.  Oh and by the way, asking your collegues is called "on the job training".

[msmarieh]

The way I read those paragraphs he places the blame squarely on the shoulders of the management of the firms.

I agree with the belief that we are often called upon to do tasks that we have not been properly trained for. I don't believe he is being intentionally insulting in his comments.

Marie

[andream]

I don't think Marcus Timson has an intentionally demeaning bone in his body. I've talked to the man, and I firmly believe that he did not mean any ill intent what so ever, it's not his style.

I have communication from him to that end, and will share it with you as soon as I get an Okay from the Times!

Andrea

[Katie G]

I don't see anything wrong with the actual content of the piece, but there is something in the "tone" that puts me off.  A classic case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it."  Waiting with great anticipation to hear the response.

[fireproof]

I agree.

The fault lies with the managers/bosses that expect their staff to do tasks without proper training; the focus of the article, however, is on the people who cannot do the jobs they are expected to do - and the reprecussions.  

It's a continuum - from management to staff to customer:  The problem starts at the top, but only manifests itself at the bottom when the customer interacts with the staff.  It's tough to be in the middle.

[bethalize]

There's a very good technique for judging phrases as to whether they are discriminatory or not. I got it from a Julie Burchill book. Take the noun in use - in this case 'Secretary' and 'PA' - that describes attributes of a person and replace it with one that is more, shall we say, politically sensitive, such as 'black', 'woman', 'Jew', 'Christian'.  Copy and paste the text into Word and try it and see if you agree with me then.

I have so much more to say on the subject of this article, but I'm listening to my friends here and I'm going to think it over.

I don't want to hurt people in some sort of revenge. I just want my views - our views - as a PA to be heard and taken seriously. I want change to come about. Face up to, admit and learn from your mistakes I believe the second last seminar I went to said. So is anyone aroud here going to be trying to improve their performance?

Bethalize
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

[jennym]

Having just spent 3 months trying to learn a new job, I agree entirely with the article.  

I became secretary to the Managing Partner in my firm, when he became Managing Partner, at the end of January this year.  That part of the job I can handle; I am an experienced and good secretary.  However, he is also a Commercial and Domestic Conveyancer.  I am not legally trained, and have never done conveyancing work before.  The secretary I took over from felt that the best way for me to learn the job was to ask her questions if I came across anything I didn't know.  Well, obviously, I didn't know anything!  How I am supposed to know, when told to "do the usual", what the usual is?  How am I supposed to know that "send off a PD form" actually means "complete a LA451" (the name of the form has changed in the last few years, I gather).  

The workload is tremendous - my boss works every day from 8.00 am until 8.00 or 9.00 pm, and Saturdays as well.  During the normal working day, his telephone constantly rings with clients (and each one thinks they are the only one we are dealing with - to his credit, he makes them feel that way) wanting to know "where we are at the moment" with their transaction.  He also operates an open door policy for staff as the Managing Partner.  So he does not have the time to train me, and nor should he, in my view.  The handover should have been as seamless as possible, with as little disruption to him as possible.

I have a lot of work to do to train him to delegate his work, and let me take over much more of the routine matters, and I am working on that at the moment.  However, as the article says, I have wasted a lot of time trying to find out how to do things.  Needless to say, the secretary I took over from (who had done conveyancing for 7 years!) soon got fed up with my questions, and I was advised by another secretary in the department that "it was not fair" to keep bothering her!!!

I am now beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel; I have bought myself a Legal Secretary Guide, and started making up an Operations Manual for other secretaries who come into the department with no conveyancing experience (I would hate anyone else to have to go through what I have been through).  I have also started re-typing the precedents, which were set up by my predecessor, and which print out on the wrong paper, contain typing errors, do not have automatic numbering, etc.  I have also typed up instructions on how to use Land Registry Direct, which the department has had for a number of years but nobody had taken the time to post up the instructions, so no-one really knew how to use it properly!

The past three months have been needlessly stressful for me and my boss.  If I had been trained, even for a few days, before I started the job I would have picked it up much more quickly.  If I had been given any sort of reference (specimen forms would have been helpful!) I would not have wasted so much time trying to find information on the system (and, believe me, it is all over the place!).

I also agree that it is frustrating dealing with people who are not properly trained.  Just yesterday, I tried to return a client's call.  The receptionist who answered the telephone was obviously new and did not know how to use the switchboard.  She kept apologising as she asked me time and again who it was I wanted to talk to, which firm I was calling from etc.  I felt sorry for her; I could hear the stress in her voice.  Eventually, she felt she had the information she needed and said she would put me through.  After holding for at least five minutes, with complete silence at the other end of the 'phone, I hung up.  Altogether, this had taken up ten minutes of my time, which was completely wasted.  It is not her fault, and I don't blame her, but I did feel frustrated!  Returning that call is still on my To Do list.

I apologise for the length of this posting!  But, as you can probably tell, appropriate and good training for staff is something I feel strongly about.

JennyM

PS  The secretary I took over from has been appointed as the firm's Systems Administrator and training supervisor- Help!  Dare I say it - if anyone needs training, it is her... on how to train

[Jackie G]

Jenny

Poor you, and all power to you for keeping your cool, getting on with things, and doing the best you could in a bad situation.  One I hope not too many people find themselves in, and certainly any successor to you won't!

When you were appointed to the job, surely it was recognised that a part of it was completely new to you - surely then was the time for this firm to organise some training pre-start?  Hindsight is a great thing though.

As for asking questions if you don't understand anything, I know how annoying that can be, but if your predecessor was true in what she said to you to ask, she should have accepted the fact (along with the knowledge you knew nothing to start with) gracefully and helped you out a lot more.

I applaud your initiative in the specimen forms, retyping and reformatting everything and giving everything proper names (thank goodness Word now lets you call things by more than an 8 letter name which helps!).  I have posted here before that when I worked for the BBC, every secretary was supposed to have a 'secretarial will' - effectively a folder containing a 'How to' guide on everything that happened in the job.  It is no bad thing for everyone in a busy office to have one.  It does sound a little daunting at first, especially when you think about everything you do (and the workload!) but if you take it little by little and get it done, and then KEEP IT UP TO DATE (as important as doing it in the first place - look at the confusion Jenny had with the change of name of a form!) then it will stand you in good stead for all sorts of things - when you're off sick and someone has to cover;  when you're on holiday and a temp comes in (external or internal);  when you leave!

Jenny, I can see why you agreed with the article.  And while generalising that most of us know how to ask for and will get the training we need, there are always exceptions.

As for people who don't know what they're doing, yes, again there are a few around.  Hopefully they don't stay long, or learn quickly, as I'm sure this switchboard operator will do.  However, she should have someone with her making sure she was able to transfer an external call to an internal extension quickly and smoothly and without causing irritation and frustration to the caller - in this case you!

It's a bit like being an L driver - we all forget very very quickly how hard it was to do everything in a fluid movement until it became as easy as breathing.  New jobs - however experienced you are - always cause a little bit of that initial panic again and allowances can and should be made.  However, there comes a limit to everyone's patience and time when allowances should stop.

Jenny, hope you feel better for venting!  That's what we're here for.

And - it's Friday ! - so enjoy the weekend though the weather looks rubbish as usual!

Jackie
www.iqps.org
DeskDemon Forum Board Staff

[bethalize]

Jenny, in a way, I can see that the theme of the article - PAs and secretaries need more training - is correct, so I agree with you in part.

The big issue I have with it is the way the blame is put squarely on to us. "PAs and secretaries are wasting time every day". Anyone reading this could say "Well, I'll just employ a trained one". Why not say to the reading bosses "You are responsible for the loss of billions because you don't give your PA training"? Because he wants to sell stuff to bosses perhaps?

And while we're on the subject of billions, this is an enormous insult. Even if the billions talked about are a conservative two (and for the benefit of our US users a British billion is a million million), how much does that make us responsible for losing? If I remember correctly there are 1.2 million support professionals in the UK. So thats 1.6 million pounds each. Now, even if you are costing the company money by not knowing everything instantly, there is no WAY you could be losing that amount. So the man is - excuse the phrase - talking out of his arse.

And for a little side note, the bit about often experiencing anxiety. Do you get anxious when faced with a new task?  Do you often - that is, more times than you don't - get anxious when faced with a new task?  I bet you don't, you sound way too capable. You'll be doing like all the rest of us: using what knowledge and skills you have to to find out how to do it, and probably getting a frisson of pleasure that you can do it and do it well.

There is a difference in lack of skills and a lack of information. You sound like you have the skills but not the information you need, like when you were saying about the forms.That's nothing to do with TRAINING, that's to do with communication. If they had told you what the form was called in this alternative universe they live in, I bet you would have written it down and been able to find it. Training to me is not someone providing me with the nuts and bolts information on what everything is called or the place you send the form on to, it's being taught things I can use - like ways to analyze figures, so I can use my stats, or how to write a company policy so it's legal.

Anyway, someone tell me how anyone who isn't a PA handle a task that is - through no fault of their own - "above and beyond their existing responsiblities, knowledge or experience"? Do exactly the same thing as we do. We USE OUR RESEARCH SKILLS.

And, given all this, who are these words I find objectionable coming from? The organiser of Creme. The person who decides what you get to see when you take a precious day off and spend money to travel all the way to London. The man who makes money by charging businesses to take stands to get to us, something they want and need, and us to get something we want and need - which turns out to be businesses trying to sell us things. Do you NEED that? I'll have a brochure and put it on my bookshelf, but I don't need it because I can always find out about it later by using the Web, magazines, directories and my contacts because I'm not stupid.

Somewhere, somehow, it's been decided that only "Executive Secretaries and PAs" are worth talking to by sellers and marketers. Our worth is dependent on who our boss is. We are chattels. It wouldn't be so annoying if it wasn't so plain WRONG, so - like the statements at the beginning of the article, so inaccurate as to be laughable. Why is it wrong? Because most of us have purchase power and influence over purchase power. And if a boss is THAT high up, they won't be spending anything, they'll have staff to do it.

Marketing is a game. We give and we get. Everyone thinks that they have received more than they gave and everyone is happy. But the algorithm they are using here is wrong. We're not getting enough. When we protest, they whine "we didn't mean it like that" and brush us off and we're expected to believe that these people are doing something for us. Sorry, in the face of the evidence, I can't believe that they are. They are using us and expecting us not to notice and not even doing us the courtesey of giving us two when we give them ten. They take and they take and they take - and they've taken too much.

So why are we still playing? Because we hope things will change. Because we hope that maybe they'll listen to us. And why would they do that? Maybe it takes a crude method like Adrian's to make them notice that we're not a herd of sheep. I'd prefer it if they would just admit that to themselves and start valuing us.

Values. The thing that doesn't apply if you are powerful enough (apparently).


Bethalize
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

[adrian_roberts]

My method may be crude, but it's effective.
The list of Creme exhibitors has been taken off the website so it's a lucky coincidence that I have my own list of contact names and e-mails already to use. Part of being a PA is always being prepared so if anyone wants a copy, e-mail me at my deskdemon address,

[adminexpert]

It IS gone, you can no longer click to the page that gives the email addresses! I am  sure it's a technical problem, they couldn't possibly be worried that we will make our feelings known could they?!  That's terrible that they think we're so ignorant we can't get the email addresses.  I was slightly angry before, but now I am really amused!

Good job Adrian and astoundingly good understanding that they would try to make things difficult. A pity they don't just say a simple we're sorry and move on with life!

[jennym]

Thank you for your support.  And, yes, I did feel bettter for venting!  

This weekend I am going to prepare a paper on good organisation/how to use your secretary effectively to present to my boss on Monday, followed by a meeting after he has had time to consider it, to discuss and hopefully come to agreement on how to work more efficiently.  I will also have another go at my automatic paragraph numbering problem!

Does anyone else feel like me that one of the problems facing secretaries/PAs these days is that bosses (mine is late 30s) don't know how to use their secretaries properly?

Anyway, have a nice weekend everyone - I am having this evening off!

JennyM

[Jackie G]

Jenny

absolutely bosses don't know how to use their secretaries, and it's up to us to train them as to how we want them to work with us!

I inherited a client's husband as a client a couple of years back and he'd never had anyone do anything for him before so he was quite accustomed to getting onto his laptop and doing his own thing.  I gradually trained him (actually I didn't realise at first I was doing it, but I just kept suggesting doing things other ways and he fell in with me - maybe he was scared of me actually!) and by the end of our real client relationship (I do the occasional thing for him now) he was ready to release to anybody else and admitted it.  Now I think he's back to doing his own thing, but when he needs help, he doesn't use the girls in the office - he pays me as a subcontractor and gets me to do it cos he likes the way we work together.

Have fun writing your paper!  Let us know how it goes.

Jackie
www.iqps.org
DeskDemon Forum Board Staff

[andream]

Having spent a great many days responding to your emails, and investigating this situation and not wanting to back up on my promise to keep you informed here's what we've found out:

There was no intent by Marcus Timson or anyone else at Touchstone to be intentionally demeaning.  Were there poor choices in wording and "tone"? Abosolutely, however that's a long way from intent.

Did anyone think that PA's would react that way they have to this indicident? No. I don't think they did, they seemed to be surprised more than anything else that people were upset by this article.

Comments from the Times Staff and Touchstone are under moratorium.  Unfortunately I have a statement in writing from Mr. Timson that I have not been given permission to print, the lack of permission came from the Times.  Until that permission comes through, if it ever does, (remember there's a limit to being heard sometimes, even by the people who should be hearing you).

What did your outrage gain you?

All your comments were sent directly to the Times Creme Supplement Team.  There were discussions on why you found it offensive, and what might have been done differently.

There was also some defensivness and lack of cooperation on the part of the Creme Organization team, but I sincerely think it was largely due to their total surprise that PA's read MYOB and indeed, managed to find the commentary offensive.

PA's have been offered rebuttal space in MYOB and we're considering whether or not making a statement gets us heard in a manner we think is useful to the secretarial community.  We'll let you know on that one when we decide. Obviously, you're welcome to respond to them directly, but if you do, do so in moderation, there is no need to cause further conflict over this issue.

Let's face it, many of us View the Creme show as dated.  There were complaints from LOTS of you about the show this year, in fact our email still overfloweth due to the article on our home page this week and it's overwhelmingly negative regarding the show.  

Maybe you were heard.  Wouldn't it be nice if someone asked the PA's who weren't there why not?

Hope springs eternal.....

Andrea