No Strong Opinions?

[goldenearring]

. . . it's not that I "gets" out of control all that often, you see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



(Who invented the exclamation point, anyway?!)

[msrobbie]

One thing you might consider if we have future discussions is that I do not label others and do not like to be labeled.  I have no party affiliation because they are ridiculous.  No one party can encompass the true feelings of a thinking individual.  



Yes, right, I'm a democrat. (Just so there's no misunderstanding, that was sarcasm.)  That's why I don't believe in gun control and I do believe in capital punishment.  Just because I did not attack Clinton and did point out the many flaws of the Nixon administration does not mean I am swayed by the left or the right.  Again, I make up my own mind.  I just used Nixon's era because it's so easy to come up with so many things that were wrong.  I could just as easily have used LBJ or JFK or DDE.  Generalization and pigeon-holing is dangerous and unproductive in any debate.



And you hardly pushed a button.  I don't know why you consider my remarks as being a reaction to button pushing.  I spoke my mind, that's all.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I will be the first to jump up and defend that - - you better believe it!   I don't agree with your rationalizations, but that does not mean I am overreacting.  That is what is dangerous about this type of discussion by e-mail or Internet postings - - so much is lost from not having voice inflection to gauge a person's tone.   (Note to Andrea - maybe your first impulse was right in that discussion we had a while back - - maybe TAA is not the place for this type of forum?)



Please . . . no labels.  I don't like labels on anything except my Tupperware.  That's where they belong.

[goldenearring]

Whatever, MsRobbie.  My apologies.  Evidently, I lost you and, I know you have now lost me, even though now, apparently, you appear to think you have correctly pegged me as a "labeler."  (But, wait, isn't that a label?  LOL)  Just because I said that apparently you're a democrat doesn't mean that I was able to sum you up in that one word.  Wow, wouldn't it be amazing to have that ability?  I'd be making a HECKUVA lot more money than I do now!  I just need to use different, more specific, words to eventually get to the same general place of common ground, and it takes me longer to get there than it does you.  Who knows?  I most certainly didn't mean for the discussion I originally started to be finished in one or two postings.  I had hoped that it would develop and that others could throw in their take on things.  I know it is possible there are things I haven't taken into consideration in molding my personal worldview and, by discussing controversial things with others, I hope to grow as a person.  Remember, you didn't have to respond to my posting, but you chose to.  I'm glad that you did; however, I assumed (an error on my part) that we might actually get somewhere other than to this place.  I'm saddened by the turn this has taken.  



Ah, if only we could all say what we meant in a way that other people would understand our heart at the same time, regardless of the medium in which we choose to express ourselves.  I wish I could add vocal inflections and facial expressions, but we both know that is impossible.  It appears that neither one of us is strictly anything, politically speaking, and we both have "way strong" feelings on certain topics, just like anyone would.  And, obviously, right now, we do not agree.  I find it impossible to go through life talking in generalizations that will never offend anyone.  Too ho-hum for me.  (I think that is the one thing I have in common with MustangSally, wherever she's gone now that "that other place" is inoperative.)



And, you're probably right that TAA is not the place for discussions like this.  On the other hand, though, it does liven things up a bit, so I wish that it were.  It's kind of a Catch 22, if you ask me, regarding having a place on this website where people can get more into things.  Have a good rest of the week. And, if in order to have a good week, you need to lock me out of here, I understand.  Next time I want to get deep, I'll go look up a website on Nietzche or Goethe.

[msrobbie]

GE, you can say whatever you want . . . after all (and I THINK I'm right on this one   ) it is your right to have your own opinion.  I don't believe anyone is going to lock you out of this website for what you have written here.  I don't have that authority anymore, and I would not even if I did (perhaps you missed the post where Andrea advised everyone that I resigned as a member of the Editorial Board).  And everything you and I have entered falls within the boundaries set by the website, so I think we're both safe.



Anyway, you go right ahead and voice your opinions.  Just keep in mind that when you do, all others have the right - - - and the obligation - - - to respond with their views as well.  How boring it would be if we all agreed on everything.



By the way, you might want to try Harry S. Truman as an alternative  to Friedrich Nietzsche.  I think you'd get a kick out of him.

[andrea843]

Why ever would I DO That GE? your points were politely stated, your views laid out fairly clearly and there was no name calling.  You met the parameters for posting in this forum, you did not demean or belittle and this forum and THIS FORUM ONLY are for discussions of the very nature that have occurred. However uncomfortable they may be for some people.



While I will not state my views on the subject at hand, I Will support YOUR right, and Robbie's right to do so in the manner that you have both used.

[yankeestarbuck]

There was one thing I found interesting about the mention of abortion.  Whereas I've never had one, never have been pregnant and probably never will be, this issue still affects me as a woman. I support a woman's right to choose and I firmly wish abortion was MORE available. With the Federal govt. removing aid to health clinics (that actually are geared more toward women's health that ONE procedure), I think that there are more unnecessary births than we think. Has anyone ever seen a photograph (or up close) a 9-month-old baby with gonorrhea? Or seen the corpses of abused infant and toddlers? The folks that do this to their children shouldn't have been parents in the first place. And had they had that other choice, without all the stigma attached to it, there would be a little, not much, but a little less suffering of the kids that are here. I do not want to say that there is no life before birth, but this isn't my belief.  When studying for my BA in Forensic Psych, I studied the minds of serial murderers and child molesters. And it was required to view case photos. If I could gouge my eyes out, I would, to forget the horror I've seen. And I extend this to incestuous parents, who are just child molesters growing their own victims in disguise and getting the "out" of an easy sentence. The less children that are born into this situation, the better.



I have a good friend who just gave birth to a little girl yesterday. And she didn't keep it. OK, abortion wasn't for her, her choice, I respect that. I didn't preach, I supported her fully. But she gave it up for adoption to a lovely couple who are very happy.  Again, I was in full support. But when I tell friends this, they frown.  She has a violent, abusive boyfriend who "didn't want it anyway". Better for the baby to go to someone who wants to be good to her. But if the fetus doesn't grow into a full born baby, doesn't that soul go to another waiting baby? (Sorry, I'm a reincarnationist.) If I'm sounding too strong, I apologize, but I think that organized religion and organized government need to step out of a person's right to choose what is right for their own body. After all, until it is born, it is still part of your body.  

[goldenearring]

Thought I needed to run for cover last night, but thank you for your comments, Robbie, Andrea, and Yankee.  That's what I meant that this is such a many-faceted topic.  There still are those women who shouldn't have one, I feel, because they get railroaded into having one by others.  Yet, when I hear of experiences such as Yankeestarbuck's, that's when my heart/thoughts/feelings get stretched into a flat sheet, and I can't say that there is one right answer.  I certainly am not God, and I hope that job NEVER becomes available!  



I laughed (to myself) at my friends and co-workers who were convinced that when Bush became president his first priority would be to overturn Roe v. Wade.  It amused me, because I don't think it is possible, and I don't think it is in the best interest of people in this country when there are so many "lookin' for love in all the wrong places," among other things that result in pregnancies.  I just wish that there wasn't an abortion industry out there that receives money for fetal by-products, because I know, and most thinking folks would have to agree, that where money is involved, there is less of a tendency to do what is in the best interest of the person who needs help/more information/more time/whatever.  I saw a pro-life brochure with a little girl on the cover, missing her right arm.  She was the victim of one of those partial birth abortions.  Seems the abortionist missed sucking her brains out, and got her arm, instead.  By the time they realized it, it was too late:  out of birth canal, and *then* she was considered human, I guess, and they couldn't kill her, because it would be murder.  (Well, what would it have been while she was still in the birth canal?!  That doesn't compute to ole linear-thinking me.)  Can you imagine the gut-wrenching turmoil that the mother (given that she has *any* kind of a conscience at all) would go through?  Did anybody tell her the risks involved, or did they just hope to be able to sell another fetus to wherever fetuses get sold.  (I've seen skin care products with human placenta in them, but I don't think I even want to know what they put unborn or "half-born?" babies into.)



I'm not a reincarnationist, Yankee, but your thought is lovely.  It gives one hope where one might otherwise hvae none.  (I'll spare you my spiritual view until someone else brings up that topic.)  I happen to believe that babies and children go to heaven and that those who were torn away from loving mothers for whatever reason will be in heaven to be raised by those mothers when it is their time to join them.  As for the others, I don't know who raises them, but I believe they go to heaven and are very well cared for.  And, I believe we won't know the answers to the great majority of our questions until we get to the other side of this "veil" where we can't see what's going to happen, but we just know that there is something more that's being kept from us in this life.



I truly hope that we can keep this type of discussion going, because, face it, this certainly isn't the kind of topic you can casually bring up at work or on the street, and there are very few people who are courageous enough to blurt out all their feelings and opinion without some degree of anonymity.  



I don't know about anybody else, but after having been in the administrative field for so long, closing in rapidly on 2 decades, after while it is just not all that exciting to talk about only administrative topics.  Office politics amuse me and, rarely, intrigue me, because there is the same set of personalities wherever you work.  They just appear in different roles in the companies where I've worked.  Right now I am fortunate enough to have found a cast of fellow characters that are set up to my liking.  Not that that couldn't change.  Fortunately, the other characters have it as good as I do or better, so they are happy to stay put for now, too.



I happen to be very pleased that there is a place on this website to go to let it all hang out, so to speak.  Right before I logged on here, I clicked on OC, and it is literally gurgling/gasping for breath, before it breaks in half and both halves plunge to the bottom of the WWW-ocean.  I will miss it, since it was my first experience with message boards, but perhaps all of the miscommunications that were on it will also be lost forever!  So, finally, in answer to your question that I took as a dare, DJCPS, yes, there are plenty of us with strong opinions out here!  And, Robbie, when I have time I will look up Former Prez Truman.  Can you recommend a book on him?  GE

[msrobbie]

You asked for it, you got it, GE.



Check out Plain Speaking:  An Oral Biography of Harry S. Truman by Merle Miller.  I've read it a number of times over the years, and there are wonderful insights on politics in the United States in the 30's, 40's and 50's.  Read on and find out why the U.S. really got involved in Vietnam, how Eisenhower was almost brought home from Europe in shame at the end of WWII, and why Herbert Hoover got a bad rap as president.  A fascinating read.

[djpcps]

Way to go, ladies!  These types of discussions (or debates if you will) are what I thought this forum was meant to be, and why I posted the No Strong Opinions! thread.



Some very good points have been made - and so politely too!  It seems the only thing most of us can agree on is that we want to make informed decisions for ourselves, not be told what we are supposed to think or feel about an issue!



To me, it's always interesting to hear the reasons behind why someone takes a particular position on an issue - and everyone has their own set of reasons.  As long as you can express those reasons without resorting to demeaning or denying other's rights to their own opinion, I find the differences stimulating.

 

[disallusioned]

I know I'm late to the conversation but I feel it necessary to voice my opinion on the discussed topic.  My view on this controversial topic is that unless you've been with someone who went through the process, or been that person, it's hard to see where we're coming from.  Yes, I've been there.  I, who love kids and have high morale values, etc, have had an abortion.  And the amount of "pro-life" stuff I had to see, among educational tools, was staggering.  This was only 8 years ago, but I saw every video they could find, had to see a video on what it looks like, what it is, and then after seeing all of that had to decide if that was what I wanted to do.  (My reasons are mine and personal and won't be posted here).  From the day I thought of getting an abortion to the day I did it was over a week.  Some say this period of waiting isn't the same everywhere but most that I've talked to (in the Mid-west) have all agreed that there is already a time-delay built into the process.  So passing a law requiring it is redundant.  But this was a decision that I was glad that I was able to make, on my own but with the support of loved ones.  It is also a decision that I live with every day of my life, every time I see someone with a baby; when I realize that my child would have been 8 this year.  Did I make the right or best decision?  I believe so but who can tell where the other path might have led me if I followed it.  All I do know is that I'm glad I was able to make the decision for myself and that the government didn't get to decide for me.



And that's my opinion, which is only one of many out there...one voice in millions on various sides of this argument.  Thank you for your time.

[msrobbie]

Disallusioned, you are a very brave person to pass on your experiences.  (And that's NOT a label, it's a compliment!)



What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander, and no two situations are alike.



Thanks for sharing.



Robbie



 

[laundryhater]

Actually, I do believe those people are a product of our school system - sad but true.



I played Trivial Pursuit with a recent high school grad (Class of 2000). Now, I didn't expect her to know all the answers because some of them are tough for me (a college grad). However, I didn't expect to have to read my own trivia questions to myself because she couldn't read. When I say she couldn't read the questions, I don't mean hard words, hard-to-pronounce words or French terms. I mean basic 3rd grade level (maybe 5th grade level) words and sentences!



I was shocked! Especially since she had just graduated from the school district my children (when I decide to have children) would attend.

[djpcps]

This is another area where I definitely have a strong opinion!  With the federal government holding the purse strings, our school system has turned into a boot camp for turning out little politically correct soldiers, at the expense of creativity, independent thought, and personal responsibility.  Any sign of independent thought is mercilessly eradicated, and the death of common sense is teaching our children that justice doesn't exist, only adherence to the rules no matter how ridiculous!