No Strong Opinions?

[djpcps]

I was just wondering why this forum has been deserted since the election was decided.  Is that the only issue that anyone feels strongly about?  No issues or causes that you have a personal passion for?  



For the record, here's my controversial stance.  I am Pro-Choice on Everything - in other words, a Libertarian.  I firmly believe in the freedom and liberty outlined in the Constitution and believe in personal responsibility for our actions.  I believe in every adult's right to live their life as they so choose, as long as it does not interfere with someone else's right to do the same, or cause harm to the person or property of another.  I believe that if we continue to allow lawmakers to legislate away our liberties one at a time, we will fulfill the prediction that within 20 years, one-half of the American population will be jailed or have been jailed for one offense or another.  What a riduculous state of affairs that will be!



Anyone care to join me and get on your own soapbox?

[craftygirl]

Hey!  She took my soapbox!  ;-)



Libertarian and proud of it,

~shannon

[djpcps]

Kind of lonely being a Libertarian isn't it?  Do some people tend to pat you on the head (figuratively) and tell you it must be nice to be so idealistic? It makes me crazy, but I just smile and say I consider myself in good company, because our founding fathers were exactly the same kind of idealists.  

[yankeestarbuck]

I get funny looks from my entire family when we discuss politics.  My mother and sister, AND my in-laws are all republicans.  I'm a mix of ideas, but my firmest belief is the Bill of Rights being FIRMLY upheld.  When I say that personal rights cannot be infringed upon, and it's sad when it lets a criminal free, but it's a snowball effect.  I get the funny look then.  And then I tell them, "Go ahead, let the government take all of your rights away. They did that once.  I saw it in a movie. Well, actually it was a news reel.  Only, I didn't understand it, because everyone was speaking German."  Then they understand. If you take his rights away, because he's a criminal, someone else can take your rights away, because for one reason or another, you'll become a "criminal" too.



Free in NYC - Yank.

[craftygirl]

Yeah I hear that.  My SO shakes his head and smiles at me occasionally........he would be a Lib too except there are a few things he believes the govt should subsidize.  *sigh*  I'm workin' on him.  



~cg

[donnap99]

I just had to chime in.  I'm not all that politically aware, but at least I wouldn't make a fool of myself on Leno's "Jaywalking" segment!  Can you believe those people are a product of American schools?!?!?



My dh helped me see the common sense in conservatism.  I grew up in a VERY liberal household.  Now we're Republican, but live in Maryland, so a lot of good that does!

 

[yankeestarbuck]

I can understand the sense of conservatism, but there are some people who are TOO conservative and they look at others thinking, "You should be just like me." That's where I draw the line. What's right for most is usually not right for me.  I'm WAY open-minded and I can say that I can see the sense of things that others would not only not be into, but some people would find shocking or down-right horrific (tattoos, piercings, S-M, B&D, Vampirism).  I'm not the kind of person that calls homosexuality a lifestyle, like it's a choice.  I believe in a woman's right to choose. I believe in an alternate religion than the general Judeo-Christianity and I think that those who think I'm a bad person for having more that one point of view in sight and to contemplate are the ones who aren't good for the evolution of our society.  I've long since come to grips with the fact that the Puritan roots and origins of this country run deep, but when it comes to freedom of choice (which actually isn't granted in the Constitution, it's an extension of the 1st Amendment and the freedom of speech), it's my choice, after all, isn't it?



Wow, did I say that?  Shocking what comes out when you start talking about your beliefs, huh?



Choosing and not Losing in NYC - Yank

[craftygirl]

What's also funny is that I considered myself quite liberal for many years.  What it comes down to, for me, is this:  anyone should be able to be anything s/he wants to be, do anything s/he wants to do, as long as it doesn't hurt others.  I'm extremely open-minded; my biggest beef is that the government shouldn't be expected to do anything but defend borders, prosecute the really criminal things (don't get me started on this, but drug possession shouldn't be criminal!  Owning *anything* shouldn't be criminal as long as you don't harm anyone else with it) and protect our freedom.  It's not Uncle Sam's job to provide me with retirement income, decide what I should do with my body, etc etc etc. . . well you get the idea.  And darn it, US darn sure shouldn't be taking the third-plus of my income!  Yankee you're right, it's kinda funny when we start on this vein. . . .

my four cents for now

~shannon

[goldenearring]

I have familiarized myself with a variety of political views, and I have one rather lengthy point to bring up.  While I lean toward the Republican camp, the Libertarian philosophy has many merits.  Its view on legalizing drugs intrigues me, and I couldn't agree more with the view on gun control.  I have difficulty with the Democratic point of view, because this country was founded as and is a Republic, not a democracy, even though the media would have us believe otherwise - - that's a whole 'nother talk show, though.  I see that party as socialism in disguise, especially the way the last administration carried out their interpretation of the philosophy during what I refer to as the 8-year reign of terror.  When our founding fathers began, there was not the technology or medical know-how to support some of the things we now like to take for granted because they are convenient and speedy.  It grieves me to the bone to hear anybody say that we should be able to do anything we want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody and include abortion in that laundry list.  Abortion is a MAJOR decision, and it is something that is too readily available to the emotional/mental/spiritual detriment of many women.  I believe that life begins at conception - - the spirit of a person is there at conception and while the body develops to a point and then declines, the spirit grows and develops into adulthood and old age (and beyond).  I realize there are situations where abortion should be considered.  I also believe that personal responsibility - - on everybody's part - - begins before the baby is created.  This is such a hard topic, I can't believe I started it, because I really can't finish it.  There are too many facets.  I have to say what I have to say, though.  Anyway, to bring up the point I wanted to make when I started this is that abortion *does* hurt other people.  Just because another person is in my body and doesn't yet have an audible voice, I don't think I should necessarily have the automatic right to say that he or she has no right to exist because of choices I made.  Am I saying women should have to pay the price for something they are not "totally" responsible for?  Well, should an unborn child pay the price for something he or she had absolutely NO responsibility for?  Regardless of whether a baby is merely a two-cell "dot" or a *visibly* moving/squirming older fetus trying desperately to escape the brain-sucking instruments of "partial" abortion (whatever the hell that is!), it has an identity, and it deserves more than to be casually dismissed/sentenced to death.  I believe that there is a highly organized abortion industry and that the best interests of women having abortion are not always considered in view of the fact that fetal by-products have monetary value.  Many women are sold on abortions, and not because it will be in their best interests.  It is true, I'm sure, that some women get good information before making a decision for abortion.  But, I am just as certain it is true that many women are not given the opportunity/time to consider the long-term effects an abortion will have on them emotionally/mentally.  Anyway, unless you have seen a picture of a garbage can filled will unborn babies, my point of view might be hard to swallow.  I guess it's a matter of conscience, if morality is too strong of a word.

[msrobbie]

As you say, it's a matter of conscience, and you cannot dictate morality or legislate conscience to particular ways of thinking, no matter how much special interest groups would like to have that happen.



Shall we go back to the days of third-floor walk-ups with folding operating tables and dirty surgical instruments?  Or do we give enough credit to the intelligence of each individual to seek out information and make up her mind regarding what is right and moral?  Again, no special interest groups should have enough power to intimidate and use scare tactics to force their opinions upon others.  There are those who would have women incarcerated or penalized in various ways because they smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol during pregnancy.  While neither of these habits are good practice during pregnancy, they are not illegal by today's laws.  There are many who would change that if they had the power.



I neither condone nor condemn abortion.  My viewpoints are my own and I do not allow any political party or special interest group or faction to dictate my thoughts or actions.  I truly believe that most of the informed, thinking population of the United States considers their civil liberties and freedoms every time special interest groups move toward limiting those liberties and freedoms, whether that involves abortion, gun control, Internet usage, regulation of alcohol and tobacco, and on and on and on.  



I make each decision in my life based on the situation, how it affects the people in my life, how it affects my environment, and according to my personal conscience, not someone else's.  However, I do not ever want to make the assumption that my viewpoint is right to the exclusion of the viewpoints of others.  I hope I will always feel that way.



Oh, and by the way, if you want to investigate a real "Reign of Terror", wander back to the late 60's and early 70's and visit the Nixon administration.  I was an adult and young mother at the time, and I still have trouble believing that nightmare occurred.  All those memoirs that were started in Federal prisons.  And the ending of the time where the media ignored the indiscretions of our elected and appointed officials.  Our country was changed forever, all because of one security guard who found a door taped open in an office building in the Watergate complex.  Amazing, isn't it, how circumstances turn on the smallest event?

 



Robbie

[goldenearring]

This is the kind of discussion I long for.  We don't see eyeball-to-eyeball on every minute point, but I think we have the same heart on two issues here.  I thought about what I had written when I woke up and, given that I have a degree that focuses on the way people use information, the only thing I would ask you to consider is that while it is true that many people can seek out their own information, there are many people who do not know where to begin to look for that information, they do not know that it is even available, or they may be afraid to ask for it.  They could be missing information that would totally change their mind about abortion.  I am all for that 24 or 48 hour "cool down" period bill that I think got fired down, and it is not for the sake of controlling anyone.  It is for their own good, so they can learn about all of the information that is available and have a chance to digest it before they make a decision that could muck up their emotional/mental health down the road when they're older/wiser.  That, of course, opens the can of worms, who would gather all of this information, who would determine which information was appropriate, and how much would all of this information cost?  I don't think that the way things are now are just for all concerned, including the unborn.  And, I don't believe they ever can be just, on this earth, for all concerned.  But, I do think they could be made a whole lot better.  Six-seven million unborn babies killed (that we know about) since Roe v. Wade should make more people stop and think.  Instead, it seems to be something we have become quite callous to, as a nation.  Anyway, off that topic for now.



I have to agree that the Nixon Administration had its fair share of, um, er, *indiscretions*, as did the Clinton.  You bring up a good point that I have difficulty coming to terms with sometimes, and that is that I was extremely young during the Nixon era.  I was blissfully ignorant of anything amiss in the White House.  Now, though, I am older and, I hope, wiser.  Come to think of it, though, at least Nixon had the grace to leave the public eye after he left office. If I were Hillary Clinton, I would want to have my husband kidnapped and taken away somewhere quiet in Switzerland for awhile, so I felt like my career had a chance to get off the ground . . . (Will you bite?!  ;-)  )

[craftygirl]

Now if only I had something to add..........I'm just enjoying the discussion.



Ha, if I were Hillary, and things really were the way they are presented by the media, I'd'a divorced his sorry ass.  But then again, all is never as it seems...........



shannon

[msrobbie]

No, Robbie does not bite.  But, consider this.  With the exception of Harry Truman and possibly Jimmy Carter, no president since before FDR has not been guilty of some so-called "moral" indiscretions (and I'm not referring to just sexual ones), many while in office. (Okay, so Truman dropped the bomb, but that's another whole issue.)  Nixon didn't sleep around, but he sure drove Pat Nixon to drink.  It's the illegal arrest of thousands of demonstrators during the Nixon administration (put up in the 'tent prisons' and then released when the Justice Department people warned Nixon's henchmen that the arrests were without legal basis) and the "Pentagon Papers" and the "enemies list" and the secret bombings of Cambodia and the National Guard fiasco at Kent State.  Everyone wants to get all up in arms about the Waco incident (and, by the way, have you ever talked to any of the locals who knew any of David Koresh's bunch? I have), but everyone seems to forget the Kent State killings.  Those Kent State students did not have a stockpile of weapons, and there were teenagers in the crowd.  That old saying that "What is past is prologue" is a word to the wise and the not so wise.  I believe it was Harry Truman (forgive me if I paraphrase) who said something like, "The only thing new under the sun is the history you haven't yet read."



And Nixon did not go too quickly or too quietly.  He produced Memoirs, which is a really slick piece of fiction purported to be fact.  I'm not defending Clinton, I'm just suggesting that we view all our government leaders with equal perspective.



My point (and I DO have one) is that I will not be swayed.  I choose to read and watch and listen and assimilate information, weighing it carefully, and making my own judgments and coming to my own conclusions.  I do not need special interest groups trying to tell me what to think or advising me on what is "moral" or "immoral".   I have a functioning, perfectly good brain of my own, and I will develop my own opinions (of which I have many).  



I do hope we are not boring our international readers with all this talk.  We Americans do love a good debate.    

[goldenearring]

Thank you for your reply.  I guess when you lay all those cards on the table, "There is not one righteous, no, not one!"  Apparently, you may be a Democrat, and I have really pushed a button.  Sorry, didn't mean to do that, just for the sake of doing it.  I have just been so offended for the last 8 years, I can't keep my mouth shut any longer.  And, actually, now that I've said it, I guess "disillusioned" is a better term than "offended."  I would have been just as torqued out of shape whether it had been a Republican, a Libertarian, or (don't get ME started on *this* one!) our (in)famous governor here in Minnesota!  I don't agree 100% with the Democratic philosophy, but I very much admired our late Senator Hubert H. Humphrey and I think I would have supported him had I been older than 9 at the time he ran against Nixon.  



Regarding the other issue, you are more well-informed and more aware of how to be well-informed than many people, I am sure.  I'm not sure we communicated on this issue the way I intended and, because I'm running out of time, I need to drop it for today, but I wanted to get back to you.  I'm not dead in the water, but I am out of steam right now!



So, we have come to the conclusion that you will not be swayed on certain things and neither will I, but still we have things in common!  Not sure what we accomplished here today, but it beats the socks off of recommending a new strategy for buying toner!

[goldenearring]

Ee-gads I just HATE it when I (or anybody else) gets out of control with those doggone exclamation points!!!  I believe the points I wanted to make could come across with out trying to emphasize them anymore than by just saying them!!!  Don't you?!!!!   Woo hoo!!!  Have a good night!  GE!