US and THEM-the debate!

[andream]

US and THEM...

There is a theory, which I happen to agree with, that there are two distinct types of secretaries in today's work place.  We've seen discussions about this before so let's set some ground rules first as this topic is likely to become very heated.

Remember that each person is entitled to their opinion and any posting which name calls or makes fun of another's views will be subject to immediate deletion by the moderator team who have been placed on orange alert status....

State your opinion and if you wish to respond to another's views do so with the clear understanding that you are discussing not arguing....

Like the earlier question I will be taking your views to a live radio broadcast on BBC Radio4 .. now back to that theory.

There are really two types of support professionals working in today's offices.  The career support person(first wave) and the short term support person who views the entry into a given company in a secretarial role as a stepping stone to other things ( second wave).  Each camp has serious perceptions about the other.  Words like dinosaur, and upstart fly around rooms with super heated air whenever we get you together, so let's hear what you think.

Why is it, that the two camps, have such heated views of each other?

Is it truthful to say that there is resentment in both camps? And if so, why? What about a first wave office pro makes a second waver think "dinosaur?" And why does the career secretary sometimes think of the  stepping stone secretary as an "opportunist"?

Further, there must be values in EACH type since they both exist in just about equal numbers within global workplaces, so where is the synergy between the two?  In order for the first wave or career secretary to continue to exist and she does,  some of the second wave office pros have to actually "convert" to career support persons.

And if you're one of those converted people who went into the profession as a stepping stone and found oneself a career management support person, did you simply get "trapped" in the role, or did you come to find that it presented enough challenge and room for advancement to keep you happy?

And remember, be NICE to each other and those who can't be nice or who would rather  take it private by emailing me with your views at editor@deskdemon.com

Andrea

[jadegrniiz]

Well, I'd be what is considered "Second Wave" or "Opportunist".

Why? Because I can't fathom staying in the same job for decades, with no substancial increase in pay, no increase in responsibilities (or at least an increase recognized by the company). To do the same job day in and day out is, in my opinion, a total waste of life.

Let's face it... the "Dinosaur" type knows *A LOT* about the company. She knows whose toes not to step on, she knows who does what and how to do the job of everyone in the office. So why does she settle for being the admin? Why doesn't she go for the Office Manager? It's very puzzling to me.

Now on the other hand, when I realize that I have no where to go in a company beyond where I am, I'll keep an eye open to better opportunity in OTHER companies. But I can't sit still in one place forever and be happy about it.

Just my views

Jadegrniiz
Peer Moderator

[Jackie G]

OK, well I think I'm probably 'first wave'!  At the age of 18 doing a 2 year secretarial course (totally by choice) at college, my other fellow students and I were very dismissive (possibly jealous without realising?) of the post graduate secretaries who had done other university/college courses, and came to do a comprehensive compacted 6 month secretarial course.  At the same time, I entered a national audio typing competition sponsored by a major electrical company and represented Scotland in the UK finals, where I was pipped for first place by a girl whose intention was to become a lawyer.  That annoyed me!

Now I have a slightly different view - older and wiser!  If someone chooses to use a secretarial job as a stepping stone to another career, fine - I have the opinion (not sure if it holds up - tell me!) that maybe they will remember what it's like to be in the position of a secretary and remember to treat their own future secretaries with the respect we expect and deserve - ie not asking for rush jobs at 5 pm, or thinking that they've told us things and expecting a bit of mind reading - you know the kind of thing!

But - what seriously annoys me and always has, is people who think they can do this job (with or without some qualifications!) and don't really have a clue what it entails and end up leaving a total mess for the rest of us professionals to sort out.  As you might guess, I'm in the midst of something like this just now for a client, but because I've taken it on of my own free will, I'll do it cos what follows will be very meaty and interesting.  All the same, I seriously wonder about people who say they can do far more than they're actually capable of - we all talk ourselves up and that's no bad thing.  But when push comes to shove, you've got to be able to do the job as well as talk the talk.

As ever, it'll be very interesting to hear other views from both the first and second wave folk!

Jackie
www.iqps.org
Peer Moderator

[topcat]

I started as a second wave in one company and saw the position of PA advertised in a different company in a local paper, applied, and now consider myself first wave.

In my previous company I was general admin supporting 2 Editors and a (financial) MD. There were the natural confilicts, and I was not happy in that situation, and now am PA in a small office of about 10 staff.

I am happy with my responsibilities, however the role is similar to that of office manager, which we do not have. Hypothetically, if this was to be created, there would be 6/7 staff who would see this as their own personal next step. As it is a small compnay, if this position was created, and A was made office manager, there would be a chance  B, C, D, E etc would then see limited future wiht the company, and look elsewhere.

It is easy to consider admins as a SUPPORT to the specific areas within the company(eg finance, marketing, sales etc), but without the knowledge, experience,  back-up and support of the admins many companies would  seriously flounder.

I think if you take a personal pride in the job you are doing, whether this is as MD, PA, QA, or whatever, you will enjoy it more. How many admins do you know who you describe as being 2nd wave and have been in their same job for a considerable length of time?

Do you mean first wave is career-minded admin, second wave is temp, wanting to be first wave in another profession? When does second wave turn into first wave?

My 5 p

Pussy
x

[movinonup]

>>>>And if you're one of those converted people who went into the profession as a stepping stone and found oneself a career management support person, did you simply get "trapped" in the role, or did you come to find that it presented enough challenge and room for advancement to keep you happy? >>>>>

I used my skills as a stepping stone to a supervisory position in my last job, but after dealing with management issues for two years, I was frustrated and unhappy.
I quit and found a corporate secretarial support position--one in which I feel challenged and motivated and involved in the big picture on a daily basis.

The only regret I have, in terms of "settling" for this position, is that at times I feel like the bachelors' degree I attained on a part-time basis over a period of several years has not contributed to my current career status.  I will see other sales coordinators (admins) going to college to work their way into the engineering positions and feel as if I've wasted my degree by continuing to work at this level.

Movinonup

[mcbethers]

I gues that I would be a "Them" or second waver.  

Admittedly, I went to college with a goal of working in parks, but on graduating discovered that there were people who had been trying to land a full time (non seasonal) job for years.  By chance, I ended up doing clerical work and discovered that I was way better at organizational tasks than at leading an interpretative tour.

I've been now doing administrative work for many years and enjoying it, but I wouldn't pass up a chance that at least brought me back to my original industry.

I have to say that personally, I don't care how people see themselves as long as they are professional about the work they do.

[elkiedee]

I guess I'm more the career secretary in that I've no particular ambition to do anything else, but I'm not sure either category fits me entirely.

When I got my degree in quite non-vocational subjects, I was veryshy and not that sure what I wanted to do. I briefly and not very successfully tried my hand at teaching English as a foreign language, more because I wanted to spend some time abroad than anything else. Then I came home and tried to get a "real" job in 1991, a recession year. Further problems - I wanted to get a trainee library post - these are assistant or library clerk posts designated for people who want to then do a postgrad course to become a qualified librarian.

First, I had a lower second class degree and some institutions only wanted an upper second, because of the postgrad course. It was a bad year and so more people were chasing these jobs. Also, the organisations offering such posts were facing massive cuts and so there were a lot less. In short, I didn't get one.

I did some office jobs and had not very good typing and self-taught computer skills. Eventually I decided that I should brush up my skills and get myself off the dole.

At 25 I took a course leading to the LCCI Private Secretary's Cert/Diploma - a very career sec oriented course. My problem with some of the ethos is not that I'm wildly ambitious to do something else, I'm not that ambitious as a secretary either! I don't want to be a PA. Also, I was quite politically active and wanted plenty of time to focus on that.

But I'm reasonably content now - I'm a legal secretary in a local government office, and most of my political activist energies are channelled into trade union activities.

I guess I'm an "earn a living but my heart is elsewhere" secretary. I'd be interested in taking up certain other things - I did some IT teacher training and found I really enjoyed and was actually very good at working with the students, although I wish I'd had the confidence boost and chance to make sense of the understanding that gave me of the rest of the coursework earlier on. We spent a lot of time preparing teaching materials without getting to apply that in the classroom - observation, teaching practice and assessment all got packed into the last few weeks.

Luci

[mathwhizchick]

I've done both over the 20+ years I've worked.  Initially I learned admin skills as a back up when earnings in my first career (professional brass player) got skimpy (I have NO talent as a waitress and HATED doing retail sales).  I really enjoyed working with temp agencies with different assignments, so that worked out well.
I have since retired from playing professionally, and am an executive secretary by choice.  All my experience over the years in office environments and organization and planning as a free lancer makes me REALLY good at what I do.  My boss is thrilled with me and my work, and has rewarded me appropriately and accordingly.  
I learn something from everyone I deal with, be they transient or dinosaur.  If they are difficult to deal with, well, OK. It may be unpleasant, but it just adds to my repetory of skills on dealing with people (and to my repetory of guerilla skills as well).
Movingonup, I have found over the years that NOTHING you learn or do, either from books or from experience, is ever wasted.   You never know when you will use something.  You may be using it now and just haven't realized it.  So, please don't think your education (book and otherwise) is wasted.

Thanks for letting me spout.  I'm looking forward to seeing other posts on this.

[countrigal]

I've said it often, so it's no surprise.  I'm a "Them".  My short stint in the secretarial positions was my way of working into a company and moving upward.  I went from flipping burgers to working at a computer without any training, but knowing my limitations, I started out volunteering for 4 months before my first job.  During those 4 months, I excelled at everything I was given.  My work ethics were set high, so I expected myself to learn quickly and professionally do whatever was given to me, without question.  That started me off on my "career".  In less than 7 years I have worked myself up from a temporary civil service secretary to a position where I'm no longer a secretary or assistant, but not quite management.  And management is aware of me and ready to groom me for those types of positions when I feel I'm ready to move on.  Most of my promotions have come through luck (moves that worked out) and through my hard work being noticed by both co-workers and bosses.

Since I work for the government, I work around a lot of "First Wavers".  The facility would grind to a halt without some of them because of their extensive knowledge, spanning years and different methods of doing things.  At the same time, some of them have the attitude "this is how it has always been done" and won't change, no matter what.  The best Career Admins, PAs, etc are those who knw the company, but also are willing to change and grow with the times.  These are the ones that I'm noticing as posters in DD.  The bad ones (and there are some, just like there are some bad "Second Wavers"), don't seem to realize that the internet is available for them to further their knowledge and that their advice could be helpful to others.  Any company needs a combination of both First and Second Wavers in order to grow and change in the world, while maintaining consistency.

And I believe that those who do move on up the company chart should remember well what they dealt with as admins and secretaries.  I have a co-worker who is also our office admin, and any time I have to ask for her help, I make sure I have complete and detailed instructions and a reasonable time to do it, taking into consideration not only what I'm giving her but her regular work too.  I'm hoping to carry those habits into whatever managerial role I take in the future.  This then allows the role and function of the admin to grow and change, as "old timers" who felt that the admin was a go-for or mindless automaton are replaced by folks who worked their way up through the secretarial/admin fields.



CountriGal
Peer Moderator

[peana]

I've been both and have never really noticed any 'us and them' problems.  With a few exceptions (none of which I'd put down to 'U & T') most admin staff I have worked with have been very supportive of one another.

To summarise, on finishing my degree (Environmental Science) I took various temp positions, one for a company in the water treatment field (right up my street).  With that company I worked my way up from receptionist to assistant project manager.  I was then transferred to the main office in Switzerland where I worked in Sales and Marketing for 4 years.  I enjoyed my job but I was massively stressed out.  I finally took the decision to change direction entirely.

I'd never been a PA before, but have always worked closely in a support role to senior management, and had to organise myself pretty tightly.  Talking to various friends and agencies I decided it was a role for which I was ideally suited.  I've no formal secretarial qualifications, but with all the temping I'd done my skills were pretty good.

My current boss is very happy with my performance and I've got the best work-life balance I can remember (even as a school kid I pushed myself too hard and had a rubbish social life).  I love my job, and do my best to support and encourage those around me.  When we get to review time each year bossie always wonders if I'm being stretched enough, is there another role I'd like to aim for, etc. but I can honestly say I've no intention of changing.  I love the variety of the role - even the mundane stuff is okay in small doses!

People often fail to realise the significance of the role of an admin / secretary / PA / whatever you call it - it is true that our worth is often only realised after the experience of a 'bad temp' (apologies to all good temps out there).  I hate to gloat, but whenever I'm doubting my decision (usually when I'm helping bossie send out the salary review letters!) I just need to compare my stress levels to those I work for and remember what all those late nights, client meals, unsociable travelling, etc. did for my health and wellbeing!

My dream jobs are to either be an astronaut or muppeteer, but now I'm in my thirties I'll be content with what I've got!  Power to all office workers, and may DD long support us and encourage us to think about our careers in this manner!

[lauragfoss]

I've gone from a "first-waver" to a "second-waver".  When I first started working in the real world, I was content to be an admin, to be "behind the scenes".  Then I started a job as an HR admin assistant...and really fell in love with that field.  I wanted to move up and do more than just the back end.

I moved up in HR, until I was laid off in August.  And had a really hard time finding something in HR again.  I applied for admin jobs, but found few opportunities that were up to my skill level and salary requirements.  I finally found a position unrelated to anything I had done before and love it as well.  Although it does have administrative duties, it is also autonomous and I have many responsibilities that I feel are not administrative-related.

I don't feel that it is so much a question of moving up into a company that separates first and second wavers; rather what type of work they want to focus on.  Many mid/upper level positions (project managers, sales support, to name a few that I've seen) are based on admin skills and duties, and yet encompass more power and/or responsibility.  I think an admin who applies him/herself can move up and still do the work that they love.

[lioness]

"I've fallen and I can't get up!". That's how I became an admin. It was never my true intention to remain an assistant, but I find that I'm very good at it, and there are many aspect of my job I really enjoy (I'm power mad!). As to why some assistants don't try for higher positions, it's usually because they like what they do. In other cases, it's because there are no other positions for them to aspire to, particularly in a larger company, and let's face it, that's where the money is. Smaller companies offer more autonomy, but they also offer lower salaries. There are no office managers in large corporations so they move up in support roles. Although I don't supervise anyone, people know me and respect me and know that I'm the one they need to get what they want, particularly if it means seeing or getting something from my boss, the head honcho.

On top of that, my boss makes up for what the company can't give me. There are many perks in my job,  so I admit it's one of the reasons I continue to do what I do. Besides, I see what he goes through and the pressure he's under and I don't know that I want the kind of responsibility he has. Unless I were running my own business, with my name on the letterhead, it's not worth it.

As for being a dinosaur, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, up to a point. I think the problem arises when you find people who don't want to change with the times, like learn new technology or programs. Those people who want to continue to do things the same way they've always been done, even when it's harder or more time consuming, give dinosaurs a bad name. But then there are the people who want to push new technology that hasn't been tried yet. That's when you have to put the brakes on and slow 'em down a little. Both sides have valid arguments, but neither seems to know how to get past them without giving up something. They need to learn to compromise.

I went to school nights and weekends for 5 loooooong years and got my BS and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. I often think I wasted time and loads of money (I'll be paying my student loan for the next 88 years), but I also know that without that piece of paper, I wouldn't be making the kind of money I'm making now. Because of the increased responsibility admins have today, the degree means something, even if you don't think you're really using all that you learned. However, if you decide to get a degree by going back to school as an adult, make sure you're doing it for yourself, not for anyone else. That's your time you're giving up, not someone else's.



Lioness, Queen of the Jungle

[ozbound]

I think I fall into a different "camp" altogether (although it is a bit like "second wave"). I'm in the camp that majored in something hopelessly impractical in college (music/composition--and no I DON'T enjoy teaching!) and thank goodness my parental unit made me pick a minor to "fall back on!" My minor happened to be English, and I picked up some work-study office experience through school.  They have turned out to be my saviors.  At first I thought of myself as being an admin. "temporarily," then I thought of myself as being "stuck," but I've gradually come to appreciate my position--and the company I'm in--very much. I could even be here long enough--gasp!--to qualify for the 10-year vacation bonus!  

However, I do find myself taking an interest in the more creative/marketing side of things, particularly since I just took a Pagemaker Class so I can help out the marketing department. If I ever do sprout wings and fly away, it may just be in that direction...

BTW there's not really that much of an us-and-them atmosphere here. I think we're about equally divided between "career admins" and folks who might end up doing something else, and there's nothing wrong with it either way. We tend to have more of an "if you're happy, I'm happy" attitiude (though our supervisor might be quite sad at this point if any of us left!)

Life is a journey in which you never quite know what the next stop will be!

[mnaeempk]

I feel somewhat uncomfortable with this as I am confusing this theory between career and position. Maybe because it has not reached Pakistan yet formally. As far as Secretary as a career is concerned I think I am a ‘first wave’ and would remain so as I adopted this career as my first and last, whereas Secretary as a position is concerned I am a “second wave” and would remain so. Though my current position is neither entry level nor a stepping-stone one, rather an executive management support.

Assuming that the theory exists and there are two camps, than the difference of opinion. Lioness has put some valid arguments for the resentment in two groups.

Synergy: Could DD (forums) be a step in that direction??

I think conversion from one camp to other is an automatic process and to and fro conversion would go on and rather increase in view of the current economy and lay-offs situation where we have to fight for the survival irregard of the 2 theories.



mnaeempk
Naeem in Pakistan

Edited by mnaeempk on 28/05/03 12:28 PM.