PA and Secretary Community - Deskdemon.com

Awhile back on TAA, there were some people upset about what the Rev. Jerry Falwell said about the World Trade Center terrorist attack, that it was "God's judgment on America."  While I agree that the timing of his remarks was waaay off, I firmly believe that there is a great deal of truth in what he blurted out that day.  I just think that most of secular America didn't want to hear it.  To them, in my opinion, the thought of being accountable to anyone but themselves, especially to a God who is not plainly in sight each day, is more than they can bear.  As a Christian and an American, I marveled at how quickly some of the people I know, who laughed at some of the things I believe and thought I was overly "religious" or, more accurately, "spiritual,"  before 9/11, called upon God to come and rescue us from this mess.  Many people put flags on everything they own, indicating how firmly they stood with the nation.  I can't help but wonder, if and when this all ends, will these folks remain as fervent as they are now.  Will they still call on and talk to God when everything is "normal" like it was before?  While my heart wants to believe "yes," deep down, I know that most of them will return to the daily routine of their lives, with nary a thought of God and what has really happened in the U.S.  I hope that I'm wrong.  

The following came to be in an email I subscribe to, and I hope it makes anybody who happens to read it think as much as it made me think.  I truly pray that no one would take their relationship with God Almighty for granted, but treasure it and nurture it.  He truly is a Mighty Fortress, if we allow Him to be.  I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God loves everyone, even Osama bin Ladin, but He doesn't agree with all of the choices that we make each day.  I don't think He is much of a proponent of "organized religion," either, but at least He is invited to the services (usually!)  I think all He's asking for is a chance, with each one of us, to establish a relationship so that He can make the changes in us that need to be made, one by one, on a personal, one ON one, basis, in love, as we open ourselves up to the need for that change.  There is nobody, no group, that He doesn't want to touch or get involved with.  I hope that you will open your heart to the following, and consider asking God to be a part of your *daily* life, if you haven't already.  And, like it or not, I pray for all of you at least once a week, that that takes place.

Weekend of November 10/11, 2001

Isa 5:20-21 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

Finally, The Truth on National TV

Billy Graham's daughter was being interviewed on the
Early Show and  Jane Clayson asked her "How could
God let something like this happen?"

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful
response. She said, "I believe that God is deeply
saddened by this, just as we are, but for years
we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to
get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman that He is, I believe that He
has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give
us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He
leave us alone?"

Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray
O'Hare (she was  murdered, her body was found
recently) complained she didn't want any prayer in our
schools, and we said OK.  Then, someone said you better
not read the Bible  in school... the Bible  that says thou
shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
as yourself. And we said, OK.

Then, Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our
children when they misbehave because their little
personalities would be warped and we  might damage
their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide)
And we said, an expert should know what he's talking
about so we said OK.

Then, someone said teachers and principals better not
discipline our children when they misbehave. And the
school administrators said no  faculty  member in this
school better touch a student when they misbehave
because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely
don't  want to be  sued(There's big difference between
disciplining and touching,beating, smacking,
humiliating, kicking, etc.) And we said, OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have
abortions if they want,  and they won't even have to
tell their parents. And we said, OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys
will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's
give our sons all the condoms they want,  so they can
have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to
tell their parents they got them at school. And we
said, OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it
doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do
our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't
matter to me what anyone, including the President,
does in  private as long as I have a job and the
economy is good.

And then someone said let's print magazines with
pictures of nude women  and call it wholesome,
down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the
female body. And we said, OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step
further and published pictures of nude children and
then stepped further still by making them available on
the internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to
their free speech.

And then the entertainment industry said, let's make
TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence,
and illicit sex. And let's record music that
encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic
themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no
adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go
right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have
no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong,
and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers,
their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough,
we can figure it  out. I think it has a great deal to do
with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

"Dear God, Why didn't you save the little girl killed
in her classroom?  " Sincerely, Concerned Student...
AND THE REPLY  "Dear Concerned Student, I am not
allowed in schools".
Sincer


Fresh Manna for the weekend of November 10/11, 2001

Isa 5:20-21 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own
sight.

Finally, The Truth on National TV

Billy Graham's daughter was being interviewed on the
Early Show and  Jane Clayson asked her "How could
God let something like this happen?"

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful
response. She said, "I believe that God is deeply
saddened by this, just as we are, but for years
we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to
get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman that He is, I believe that He
has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give
us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He
leave us alone?"

Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray
O'Hare (she was  murdered, her body was found
recently) complained she didn't want any prayer in our
schools, and we said OK.  Then, someone said you better
not read the Bible  in school... the Bible  that says thou
shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
as yourself. And we said, OK.

Then, Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our
children when they misbehave because their little
personalities would be warped and we  might damage
their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide)
And we said, an expert should know what he's talking
about so we said OK.

Then, someone said teachers and principals better not
discipline our children when they misbehave. And the
school administrators said no  faculty  member in this
school better touch a student when they misbehave
because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely
don't  want to be  sued(There's big difference between
disciplining and touching,beating, smacking,
humiliating, kicking, etc.) And we said, OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have
abortions if they want,  and they won't even have to
tell their parents. And we said, OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys
will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's
give our sons all the condoms they want,  so they can
have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to
tell their parents they got them at school. And we
said, OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it
doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do
our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't
matter to me what anyone, including the President,
does in  private as long as I have a job and the
economy is good.

And then someone said let's print magazines with
pictures of nude women  and call it wholesome,
down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the
female body. And we said, OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step
further and published pictures of nude children and
then stepped further still by making them available on
the internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to
their free speech.

And then the entertainment industry said, let's make
TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence,
and illicit sex. And let's record music that
encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic
themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no
adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go
right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have
no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong,
and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers,
their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough,
we can figure it  out. I think it has a great deal to do
with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

"Dear God, Why didn't you save the little girl killed
in her classroom?  " Sincerely, Concerned Student...
AND THE REPLY  "Dear Concerned Student, I am not
allowed in schools".
Sincerely,
God

I can see your point - but I don't think this is God's judgement on anyone.   This was an act of evil - and God doesn't do evil.

We often 'have a laugh' at those who are believers and have a faith.  We've become a society where God doesn't exist sometimes until we want him to and it's convenient for us.

It seems to me that society thinks of religion and faith as a bit medieval  - scientists tell us that God couldn' t possibly exist, we all came into being with the BIg Bang.  I feel sorry for those scientists - they try to see life in 'black and white' and for them anything that doesn't fit in to the laws of physics couldn't possibly be.

Whether we like it or not, there is more to this world than we can explain.  How often on your way to work do you think about the Universe around you? - the stars burning, the planets turning, galaxies being born and merging.  Well, I like to think that while I'm worrying about the trivial things like paying the gas bill and getting to work on time, there is a God watching over it all.

Hey - that's just my opinion.

You're right:  God doesn't "do" evil, but he allows it when certain conditions are met.  Believe me, this country has definitely met the conditions and gone "to infinity and beyond" in testing the limits of God's grace.  You'll never get an argument from me that God is anything but good; He does demand justice, though.  I shudder when I think of what might happen if we got what we deserve, and I hope that never happens.

Although I have my own impressions/opinions of the source, I can't deny that she clearly put our moral history on the table!


DonnaP99

You know what, there was prayer in the school in 1939 yet a whole lot more people died in World War II.  There wasn't access to abortion, or feminism in 1914 but look at how many people died in World War I.

I think you are looking for simplistic solutions for extremely complex problems.  I am also completely offended because you seem to think that Christianity has the copyright on the moral code.

Do you suppose a whole lot more people died in those wars, radaro, because of the type of fighting that was done?  The weapons weren't nearly as sophisticated; there was no infrared so bombers could see and hit exactly what they want in the middle of the night.  Those wars were also on a far broader scale than what we're involved in now, at this point, at least.  And, I think the players were on a more level field regarding what they had to use against each other, so, of course there were more people killed in those two wars.  

And, go ahead and be offended, if you like, because nowhere did I say that Christianity, as you say, "has the copyright on the moral code." That *would* be pretty pompous of me, wouldn't it?  (I don't believe I even mentioned the Name of Jesus anywhere above, did I?)   I do believe Christianity is a good thing, when understood in the right way.  I am nothing short of amused by people who get set off just by the mere mention of it and, especially, by the phrase "born again," when they don't even know what it means, they just think they do.  They think, like I did, that just because they went to a church or heard something, and they got offended, that it's all a bunch of hooey.   I do not discount Judaism or most any other faith where there is an accountability to God, for one's actions and not just to "the right thing to do" taken into an individual's own hands, solely as they see fit.  From what I've observed, human nature is just a little too unruly to guide itself to anything but destruction. Self-destruction, usually.  

I do understand that the problem is multi-faceted, yet I also think there is a big red flag waving in the face of America and most people choose not to see it.  Answer to the problem, as I see it, remains the same:  personal relationship with God and allow Him to bring us to maturity.  *Everything* an individual does affects others, so there is no getting by with the flippant "I can do what I want as long as I don't hurt anybody else."  That's not moral code; that's ignorance gone to seed, as it has in this country, and that is my point.

Sure you don't mention Jesus but, correct me if I'm wrong but Billy Graham is a Christian minister.  I didn't mention anything about born-again because I know nothing about.  I know only one person who claims to be born-again and I hope that he is not an example of what born again is.

More people died in those wars because the entire European theatre was involved.  Right now the war is isolated to Afganistan but if the war were to spread beyond those borders, there could very well be as many deaths as in WWI and WWII.

You say that the bible is not taught in school and the bible says thou shall not kill and thou shall not steal.  As far as I know that is also written in the American laws.  Why isn't law taught in school or responsibility for ones actions?  These are ideas that transcend religion.

What about the American law that allows for the right to bear arms?  Isn't that a bigger factor in the huge homicide rate in the States than the bible?

Why should I hit my kids?  That only teaches them that the solution to problems is physical violence and domination.  As for Benjamin Spock's son, I didn't know this story.  But did he commit suicide because his dad never hit him or he was a victim of clinical depression?

As for pornography and violence in the movies, we have the right to shut them out and off.  If enough people chose not to see these things then there would be no market.  I don't buy these magazines or see these movies.  I have made the choice not to and isn't that what America is all about?  Freedom of choice?

radaro, did you miss the fact that I didn't write the stuff below Anne Graham's quote?  So what if Billy Graham is a Christian minister?  I simply said that the article below is food for thought in my preface to the entire article, which was above/before anything else you seem to be upset about having read..  I get the feeling you did not read my introductory comments, got angry and jumped to the conclusion that I am the author of the *entire* passage I quoted.  Not so.

And, yes, freedom of choice, but where is the limit?  You say you can turn off your tv, but when you send your little girl or boy out on the streets, how can you be so sure that everyone else has "tuned out" to what YOU chose not to see?   Pornography can become an addiction, just like alcohol/drugs, and it can make people, who also exercised their freedom of choice, a living nightmare to those who are not weak in that area.  Should we go so far to say, in the defense of "freedom of choice," that it is o.k., once again, to drive under the influence?  That is the same logic, to me.  We are ALL weak in some area, and we need more help than we can provide to ourselves to overcome these areas.  That help comes from God, and from Him only.

And, yes, the Bible does say, "Thou shalt not kill."  It also says that if you suffer injustice to fight back.  If someone came into your house to rape you, would you just lie there?  Mehopes not.  I hope you'd grab the nearest baseball bat or whatever and fight with everything you have in you.

The war in Afghanistan is not so much a war on terrorism, as we believe it is.  I rather believe it is a war of Islamic fundamentalism against the free West (which largely claims to be Christian, to my knowledge).  It is a war on ideologies.  That is another talk show, though.  

I sincerely doubt that a well-placed swat on the butt, from time to time, is going to give any child the idea that the only solution to problems is "physical violence and domination."  Does a two-year-old running into the busy  street understand reasoning?  FYI, "the rod" in the Bible, is the rod of discipline.  Look it up in a reputable Bible study aid.  Where in the Bible does it say to spank your kids?  Show me, and I acquiesce this point.  Whatever the author said about Dr. Spock's kid was "food for thought."  

Re gun control, I'm against it.  That is a tougher issue, though, you're right.

As for law not being taught in the school, did you know that our entire judicial system, in fact our entire U.S. constitution, is founded on precepts of the Bible, most of them Christian?  Only one of the signers of the Constitution was not a Christian, and that was Thomas Jefferson.  He had a pretty sad end, come to think of it, not that any of the others had any kind of a joy ride.  Point of all this is:  maybe law and personal responsibility is not taught in our schools because it IS a Judeo-Christian concept.  I don't know.

I personally do not believe that there are ANY ideas that transcend God's Word.  And, FYI, for what it's worth, I don't believe in organized religion like catholicism, which is the most organized religion I can think of.  I think there is too much pageantry/too many rules/not enough personal relationship with God.  And, I don't think it is the school's responsibility to teach our kids right from wrong:  that is the parents job.  How can parents who won't take any guidance themselves, teach right from wrong?  

So, back to my original point, in the first posting, the email was "food for thought," not fodder for flame wars.  I'm not under any misguided notion that I am going to "win" any kind of a discussion with you.  I threw the email out as something to consider and, apparently, you have.   Have a good week.  GE

I must have misinterpreted your agreement with Jerry Falwell's remarks and I quote "While I agree that the timing of his remarks was waaay off, I firmly believe that there is a great deal of truth in what he blurted out that day".  That is what I got my goat.  Do you really think that feminists and homosexuals are to blame for the terrorist attacks?

No, I don't think that feminists and homosexuals are to blame for the attacks!  That would be as ludicrous as saying fat people and drunks were the cause.  I believe that we, who say we are Christians, when we don't adhere to what we say we believe, put ourselves in harm's way. We are the cause.   When we, as a self-proclaiming "Christian" nation kick God out of our daily lives, why should He fly in like Mighty Mouse to our rescue?  It saddens and angers me that a great majority of so-called Christians think of God as nothing more than either Mighty Mouse, or as The Big Guy in the Sky, with a flyswatter, just waiting to smack us when we do something wrong.  He is neither one.  He is a loving God, yet He also demands justice.  If He didn't, what kind of a God would He be?  It ticks me off that, if and when things should return to "normal," that many of these flag-waving, "God bless America" people will go back to their normal routines with nary another thought of God until something else catastrophic happens.  Then the record-breaking flag sales and the "God Bless America's" will start all over again, like some sort of routine for luck.  Once that "luck" has been achieved, the way it was accomplished is cast aside until needed again.

Although I don't agree with a great majority of the feminist thought, I think there is a place for Equal Rights, yet I also believe that there are certain things that need to be so, in the home, in order for peace and harmony to reign.  Yet I personally know two couples who have successfully managed a so-called "role reversals," where she earns the dough and he raises the kids, successfully.  There are, though, certain, timeless principles, that when applied over time make for a mighty happy home and fulfilled married couples.

I believe that homosexuality is a sin, yet I also believe that God loves everyone, hence the call for a personal relationship so He can fix our individual woes.   Me telling somebody that they're "wrong" isn't gonna do it, that's for sure!  We're all too enmeshed in our own weakness(es) even to be able to see what it is doing to us (and others), and that includes me.  Romans:  "There is not one righteous, no not one."  I believe that overeating/letting ourselves be out of shape, or drinking/doing drugs,  to the point where it endangers our health is *just as great* a sin as homosexuality, if that gives you any insight to my way of thinking.  I have gay acquaintenances whose company I enjoy, and I have (a lot) of overweight friends, including myself!  I also know several people, including some close, who battle with alcohol-related issues.  I don't hate them for their problems, nor do they hate me for mine.  We all seek to come to terms with the fact that we can't change ourselves, and there is only One who can!  We do the best we can to honor each other (which means respect and encourage the self esteem of), and get along in life.

It's individual indulgences in whatever area happens to be our weakest area that I think have produced the moral underpinnings of the country that we have today:  overweight, oversexed, overindulgent in most anything there is that is a pleasure to our eyes, our bodies, or to our sense of pride.  Nobody is exempt from these pressures, yet we ALL make choices each and every day that, whether we like it or not, affect others around us on a far deeper level than what I think we know.  We are unable to overcome these pulls on our own, without help from God.  As we ask Him to, He starts changing us and opening our eyes to the affect of our problems/challenges/sins on others, and from that we get the motivation to go further.  I still think there is a great deal of truth in what Rev. Falwell said, but for my own reasons, not necessarily his.  Hope that all makes sense, radaro, even though it is darn near a book unto itself!  Thank you for sticking around long enough to say what it was that ticked you off in the first place.  Not many have that kind of staying power!

P.S.  All of what I said above should not be ingested without the knowledge that I am fully aware that there are far more problems and sides to our current world situation than any human being is ever going to be able to rectify.  I think we are at the edge of the very most exciting time in all of history, and we have started down a road, no idea how long it will be, on which we cannot turn back.  

Just to add my twopenneth....

You hear a lot of people say these days "what about my rights as an individual?".  Well, that's fair enough but what about people's responsibilities to each other?

We cannot live on this planet (whatever creed, religion, race we are) in total isolation of other people.  As a member of the human race, we should be looking out for other people ie making sure the old lady next door who hasn't been seen for a few days is OK (and she's not lying sick in her house).

I like to think that the majority of people do this, but there are still a number of those who are only interested in self-preservation.

Let's just hope that after all these terrible events (people dying in US and innocent people getting killed in Afghanistan) that the world becomes a more caring place, where we all look out for each other.  

Just my opinion, but I pray that something good comes out of so much hate and evil.

you're right, kittie.

We can debate this until the cows come home so I'm going to stop here and just agree to disagree.  I do not feel that belief in God or religion makes someone a good person, the Taliban had both and look what that lead to.  I believe that morality (knowing right from wrong) and value for human life makes someone "good".

Think about it Kittie, here you have a truly explosive potential in what's been posted here.  People often can't talk rationally about religion or politics, let alone the two combined and yet no one lost their tempers, no one slung around any mud, people aired their views and took the other's viewpoint without blowing up, (A situation we've seen sometimes in the US Message Boards).

Perhaps people are more tolerant, more willing to listen to others, less willing to toss in a firebrand where a careful word would do just as well,  I don't know, but I DO know that I See it in these message boards,  people communicating at a level that might not have been possible before.

Sharing of oneself, putting things that are felt strongly "out there" for others to see, read, and respond too, takes a special kind of courage, having the maturity to NOT respond in a hateful or ugly manner takes even more courage I think.  

There's  courage aplenty in this forum today...Well Done ladies, Well done!

Andrea

because I didn't read any "tolerance" in goldenearring's posts. I read judgment, hypocrisy and one contradiction after another.  SisterEarring, you can out-waffle Aunt Jemima!

Hey, RadarO, wanna go for a ride in my Ark?

Hey, baby, even the blind will see some day!  :)  Have yourself a super week.  Maybe someday you'll explain your analogy to Aunt Jemima.  I can't be the only one whose head that went over.  GE, longin' for a deep discussion, but I can see it probably ain't gonna happen with you.  LOL

and American woman, my kudos to the posters involved did not deal with the content of their individual posts but with their ability NOT to get nasty with each other.  No more no less.

Andrea

Okay, just gonna throw my 2 cents in here. Yes, I am a Christian. No, I don't believe that Christians have a corner on morality, but I do believe we are the only ones who have accepted the gift of salvation. (Note that I said accepted, not the only ones who are given God's grace and salvation - those gifts are offered to everyone.) I know many good and moral people who are not Christians.

I also agree that God allows evil. That is a price we pay for being given free will. If we didn't have free will, we wouldn't be able to make bad choices and sin and evil would not exist. Given that, can God use what happened on 9/11 to bring the world closer to Him? You bet! He can use anything - no matter how horrible - to fulfill His plan.

I also want to say that I think this topic has been handled quite well. There are obviously people who hold strong opinions that differ greatly from each other. I'm so glad no one descended into name-calling or insulting each other in any way.

GE, thanks for opening up this topic and for the info on your first post. It's certainly food for thought. And RadarO, thanks for your replies and for making us think about another point of view.

Barb

to speak or write evasively; or when used as a noun, evasive, vague or misleading speech.

I admire a person with strong opinions and sound logic, goldenearring, but you are all over the place.  And you seem to have been granted "untouchable" status on this website; apparently you're immune from criticism and  are never held accountable for your wobbly beliefs. You like Jerry Falwell? You don't like Jerry Falwell? Gay people are sinners? Or are they your friends? Overweight women are sinners? Say WHAT?!  

To "blame" the tragedies of September 11 on anyone other than the rightful perpetrator (Osama bin Hiding in a Cave, or whatever his name is) is to misuse and abuse the name of God and to use "religion" to further an ultra-conservative agenda.  Shame on Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson for taking a time of unprecedented global grief and trying to turn it into political currency. To  quote Walter Cronkite:. "It makes you wonder if [Falwell and Robertson are] worshiping the same God as the people who bombed the Trade Centers and the Pentagon." Amen, Walter.

Some of us, I think a lot of us, believe in a God of love and forgiveness, one whose embrace is broad enough to encompass everybody. Even--maybe especially--someone like Mark Bingham,  the gay man who was one of the heroes of United flight 93 who led the passenger uprising against the hijackers.  According to your very intolerant belief systen, Mark Bingham is a "sinner."  I believe that In the eyes of God,  that heroic young man's soul is pure, and he is without sin.

I am appalled  that what passes for "ladylike" behavior around here would be, in any other situation, denounced for the hate mongering that it is.

I applaud you, RadarO, for your immense compassion and sanity. We need so much of that right now. You are awesome.

Ya know I think there were about a thousand other ways to express your opinions without a personal attack on the poster. So let me say what I wanted to say when your "I must be Blind" post went up....They make glasses in one hour in most countries of the world.  I did not agree with all of the original poster's statements, nor do I agree with your outright attack of her views either. Nor do I find even remotely amusing your statement that the poster has any more right to free speech than anyone else who visits these forums. but there is a huge difference in a discussion of views and opinions and outright attack.  
And since you were banned at The Admin Authority for similar behavior in past I'm sure you're familiar with an old TAA saying:  play nice or play elsewhere

Edited by admin on 14/11/01 08:04 PM.

There is nothing wobbly about what I believe.  If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have said it: you just don't like me saying it.  Too bad!  You are entitled to your opinions, and I am entitled to mine.  "Topical Climates" is a place to discuss things like this and, if your emotions allow you to do so in a rational, non-emotional way, I'm up for it.  Are you?  And, yes, *anyone* who abuses their (uh, that would be his or her)  body, in any way/shape/form, including overeating, falls into my definition of sinning.  That would include habitual smokers, too.  How many people want to stop doing that, but they can't - - by themselves - - hence, the need for God, IMHO.

I don't see any hate-mongering going on here except your hatred toward me and what I believe.  I believe there are many who believe similarly, maybe not thought-for-thought, though, just like andream and barbri state.  It doesn't really matter.  It's a big beautiful world, and my thoughts count, just like anybody else's, so deal with it.  I didn't close off the discussion, like you seem to be, for other ideas.  How are people supposed to enlarge their world view if the opinions they hold are not allowed to be freely exchanged?  I get the feeling you would put a little yellow star on me, if you could.  Unfortunately, I don't fit into your stereotype of pushing an "ultra-conservative agenda" just because of what I stated above.  I helped to put Paul Wellstone, MN-D, far left, over his ultra-conservative opponent at the time.  The reason?  The one with the ultra-conservative was making fun of Wellstone and getting a little too big for his britches.  Does that make me a contradiction-in-action?  I don't think so.  I think it makes me a thinkin'-for-myself kinda gal.

If you can't put your two-cents' worth without spewing forth your own brand of hate labeled "free reign for everybody but GE," I *still* believe you are the pot calling the kettle black - - only your screen name has changed.  And, the only thing I'm putting down about you is your still-stinky attitude toward anything that's not just the way YOU think it should be.  You would be stiff competition in a wafflin' contest, yourself, m'dear.

P.S.  And, maybe, just maybe, I have what you perceive to be "untouchable" (you still make me laugh) status because I would prefer a civil discussion over mudslinging.  The world may never know.   GE/Sister Golden Hair  LOL

Frankly, radar, I would love to discuss this until the cows come home.  I've always seen this forum as a place to get out there, lay stuff on the table, and have different people with widely varying views talk about what's on *their* mind.  That is, of course, if they can do it without losin' it.  It's fine to agree to disagree, but I sure would like to know what you and others think sans the personal attacks.  How on earth are we supposed to expand upon and sometimes modify what we think otherwise?  Still hankerin' for that venom-free poster with a strong opinion and a strong stomach, who can actually sometimes laugh at themselves, too, for much discussion about much stuff of widely varying degrees "political-correctness" in this particular forum.  Are you out there?  GE  (Getting bored talking only about topics like the best pen to use and minor personal problems) in Minneapolis

Can I just say I love this place.  

It is great to be able to get together with people of very different views and debate things in a sensible, mature way.

And to the people who result to name calling, moaning etc - STOP!  

May the debate continue!!

Okay, let's continue the debate.

I believe that every human being is a sinner. Only the Lord is perfectly without sin. However, Christians have the power to ask for forgiveness and receive it. That's what makes us different and special than the rest of mankind.

Also, yes what that Mark guy did was very courageous BUT that does not change the fact that he is living in sin as a homosexual. Homosexuality is a sin (I don't care if anyone else thinks it is not - it is.). Just like incest is a sin. It is not what God intended. Those who engage in those acts will be judged and punished by him (think Sodem & Gomorah). God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. God created woman to be a companion to man.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the subjects at hand.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my free speech rights.

And yes, Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.

I don't believe I ever made a personal attack on you.  I made comments about your belief system as you did about mine but I NEVER made an attack on you personally.

I personally don't feel that we should debate this any longer since I feel that we will just travel in circles.  We are both very opinionated and I highly doubt that either of us will change the other's mind.

Radar,

I don't believe that GE was implying that it was you who was personally attacking her.  

Laura
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

"I don't believe I ever made a personal attack on you. I made comments about your belief system as you did about mine but I NEVER made an attack on you personally. "    NOT "SHOUTING," JUST CAPS TO LET YOU KNOW WHAT IS MY ANSWER TO YOUR COMMENTS:  YOU ARE RIGHT, RADAR.  YOU ARE RIGHT.  YOU ARE RIGHT.  YOU ARE RIGHT.  THE "PERSONAL ATTACKS" COMMENT WAS DIRECTED TO AMERICANWOMAN, AND SHE KNOWS IT.  SHE IS JUST LYING LOW, AS IN THE PAST, HOPING THAT THIS WILL RESULT IN A FLAME WAR.  IT WON'T.  

"I personally don't feel that we should debate this any longer since I feel that we will just travel in circles. We are both very opinionated and I highly doubt that either of us will change the other's mind."  WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE THAT WE ARE BOTH HIGHLY OPINIONATED?  I REITERATE MY OPINION THAT IF WE CAN'T SHARE WHAT WE BELIEVE, IF WE GET SHOT DOWN JUST BECAUSE WHAT WE SAY TICKS EACH OTHER OFF, HOW ON EARTH CAN PEOPLE LEARN FROM EACH OTHER?  MAYBE NOW YOU HAVE COOLED DOWN AND CAN READ WHAT I WROTE BOTH TO THE A-WOMAN AND, THEN, TO YOU, AND GET THE HEART OF THE MESSAGE.  THIS PARTICULAR FORUM **IS** A PLACE TO DISCUSS "HEAVY" STUFF, WITHOUT PERSONAL ATTACKS, AND WHILE KEEPING EMOTIONS IN CHECK.  I DIDN'T ASK TO CHANGE YOUR MIND; I THREW OUT MY OPINION AS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.  WE MAY NEVER CHANGE EACH OTHER'S OPINIONS, BUT IS THERE ANY REASON WHY, IN THIS FORUM, UNDER A CLOAK OF RELATIVE ANONYMITY, WE CAN NOT FREELY SHARE THEM IN ORDER TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND GAIN A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF WHY EACH OF US THINKS THE WAY THAT WE DO?  IF THAT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK, THEN I WOULD HAVE TO ADMIT I DON'T KNOW WHERE ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY SUCH AS THIS WOULD PRESENT ITSELF.  LIKE I SAID, TALKING REPETITIVELY ABOUT THE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT MUNDANE THINGS THAT CAN COME UP IN ADMINS AND CAFE ADMIN GETS A LITTLE BORING AFTER WHILE, AT LEAST TO ME.  IF I'M GOING TO SPEND TIME ON A BOARD LIKE THIS, I WANT A LITTLE MORE OUT OF IT THAN TELLING YOU WHAT HAIR COLOR I USE!  (I'M SURE YOU CAN APPRECIATE THAT, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'VE GOT MORE THAN FEW YEARS OF ADMIN EXPERIENCE UNDER YOUR BELT, JUST LIKE I DO.)
OK, ENOUGH ALREADY.

Ouch! All those caps hurt my eyes.

I had a boss who would do that (type in caps) once - she would kick up if I didn't get her letter absolutely perfect - but she would send out e-mail with spelling mistakes, no punctuation and all caps. Urgh!

Since we're talking about beliefs, I believe that believe should be spelt with three letter E's - belieeve. My fingers type it every time.
And, on the same subject, if the plural of elf is elves and the plural of hoof is hooves, why isn't the plural of belief 'believes'?


Bethalize
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

You're funny, Liz, but I think your particular topic is probably more appropriate for "cafe admin," those preferring the light-weight approach!  LOL
Still hoping for a response from radaro, eyes hurting or not, that she got my message that I know she certainly wasn't launching an attack.  I think you're wonderful, radaro, always have, probably always will.  

just posting to move this back up toward the top

Well, I was going to be all serious and join in with my seriously considered opinion, but I was so tired that I couldn't bring myself to do it, so I just stopped typing after the first bit.

Bethalize
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

Ouch, I'm still cross-eyed from trying to read all the caps!  I think you're pretty cool, too (even though we can't agree on religious or political issues ).

I think and I have taught my children that everyone is different, that is what makes the world an interesting place!

Amen, SisterRadar!  Interesting.  To say the (very) least.

Now that we've cleaned up house, here, that brings us back to YOU, MsLiz:  what IS your seriously considered opinion?

Opinion on what, exactly? I have lots of opinions, but they are pretty worthless as they are mostly based on belief. Ergo, they are not fact, therefore there is no point in me presenting them.
I know from experience that you can't win an arguement with someone who has "faith" in something. So I prefer to leave it.

Bethalize
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff

You are the winner of today's Minnesota State "Whatever" award, Liz.  Congrats!

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